The stele was erected by Mesha circa 850 B.C.E . Does Yahweh regret and change his mind OR does he not? Because we are looking at two different Elohim, the Elohim in the phrase "the Elohim of their father" must be used in the plural sense. Baal or Moloch or Chemoshthe name may change, but their bloodthirsty appetite for the most acceptable offering of infants does not. One says: The king sacrificed his son for the sake of Heaven, and one says: The king sacrificed his son for the sake of idol worship. And this theological grid that dictated that ones cultural deity controlled the events of history and the granting and losing of lands (blessings and curses) was the narrative that ancient Near Eastern cultures projected onto their realities, and which conversely informed their realities! And from there I took the vessels of Yahweh, and I brought them before Chemosh.". The Moabite Stone is a priceless source of information concerning Chemosh. (Deuteronomy 2:9). She would only be breaking her promise if I called her that day I was supposed to and she didn't go on a date with me. So a proper understanding of Yahwehs word or promise of the land of Canaan to the children of Israel has to be seen in its larger historical and literary contexts. [6]. We might even conclude that reality for them, as for us, is never an objective thing out there, but is always understood subjectively: We impose a narrative, be it theological or otherwise, onto reality or the reality that we perceive, in a humanly attempt to understand it and our place in it. Chemosh was apparently associated with the Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar. [7] Possibly Israel had the wrong allies and this angered Jehovah. Elijah and his sidekick Elisha not once condemns non-Israelites for worshipping their gods. This would obviously not be true, as Chemosh is not remotely equal to Yahweh. . Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ). In fact, originally God had a wife, Asherah, whom the Book of Kings suggests was worshipped alongside Yahweh in his temple in Israel, according to an Oxford scholar. Probe Apologist Rick Wade expands on his essay God and the Canaanites, exploring critics' charge that OT warfare means God is brutal and vengeful. The 8th 9th century Yahwist Tradition (Num 21:15-31), 2. This act by Solomon was no doubt to some extent a political one, motivated by a desire to honor his Moabite wife. King Josiah destroyed the Israelite branch of the cult (2 Kings 23). ", http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm. Only later, when subsequent biblical authors began to embrace monotheism, were the original writings suppressed. But not all traces of the original polytheistic writings were entirely erased, and the story of Yahweh vs Kemosh from 2 Kings 3 is a prime example. Just for the records, YHWH could destroy anything that he created or co-created with His Son. He also names Mesha as the son of Chemosh. The Israelites were driven back by divine wrath opposing their gods will. Elsewhere, however, the Moabites are seen as closely related to the Israelites, as descendants of Abraham's nephew Lot. Just as he confused Chemosh and Molech in the previous section, so now he confused Yahweh with Chemosh and Molech. Why would I take your advice when you said you are not going to address OP's debate directly? Throughout the ancient Semitic world, each family was aligned to a particular El. Here as well, the Jewish people learned from the king of Moab to engage in human sacrifice.en Levi. This site requires JavaScript to run correctly. It makes no sense for Yahweh to be angry with the Israelites for what the king of Moab did; if anything, he'd be mad at the king, and give Israel a victory. Hadad | Kothar | Melqart | Mot | Moloch | We also saw that the Yahwist used an older tradition (the poem of Num 21:27-30) to deflect Moabite claims (see the Mesha stele) that they stole the land from them. That suggests it wasnt redacted until the exile period, when the Pentatuch was created, as opposed to an earlier JE redaction. Support the show with bitcoin: fbn@getalby.com Kam was the supreme deity of the Canaanite state of Moab and the patron-god of its population, the Moabites, [1] [2] who in consequence were called the "People of Kam". ' " ( , ) ( , ) , The Gemara answers: This can be understood in accordance with the statement of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi. Elyon El Roi Marduk Asherah Nisroch Resheph. An unmistakable linguistic parallel with the Hebrew text underlying the Septuagint reading was thus discovered, one that prompted many scholars to accept the Septuagintal reading on logical and philological grounds--God (El Elyon in Deut. The incorrect understanding is the backwards assumption of omnipotence from later Persian influence. Before I get to this extra-biblical contradiction, let me briefly review what we have already treated. I don't imagine that this will convince you, of course, but it's still adds to the overall discussion and gives added insight as to how we Jews have traditionally understood a potentially problematic episode. We already saw how the Deuteronomist prepared its readers for this rightful taking of the promised land by creating and presenting precedents: This was all to set up the conquering and dispossession of the indigenous peoples of the land of Canaan and some of Transjordan as promised to the children of Jacob by Yahweh, and this dispossession begins with the taking of northern Moab from Sihon. Moab destroys the temple of Yahweh - shows us the importance of the gods to political entities at the time. Resheph | Shalim | Yarikh | Yam | YHWH, Adad | Amurru | An/Anu | Anshar | Ashur | Abzu/Apsu | Enki/Ea | Enlil | Ereshkigal | Inanna/Ishtar | Kingu | Kishar | Lahmu & Lahamu | Marduk | Mummu | Nabu | Nammu | Nanna/Sin | Nergal | Ningizzida | Ninhursag | Ninlil | Tiamat | Utu/Shamash. (Deut 2:24, 31). There's actually an interesting discussion of this in the Talmud, Sanhedrin 39b. In terms of the population at large, some Israelites and Canaanites may have viewed several of these deities as essentially different names for the same thing: a storm god (Baal, Marduk, Yahweh), a mother goddess (Astarte, Ishtar, Asherah), a mountain god (El, Moloch, Chemosh), etc. Discovered in 1868 at Dhiban, Jordan (biblical "Dibon," the capital of Moab), the inscription of 34 lines is the most extensive document ever recovered referring contemporaneously to ancient Israel. The specific characteristics of Chemosh are not clear in many respects. Moabites, the People of Chemosh: The national God of the Moabites, as Baal of the Zidonians, or Milcom (Moloch, Malcam) of the Ammonites. The Israelite judge Jephthah had offered Yahweh a similar sacrificehis virgin daughterto fulfill a sacred vow he had made to God prior to gaining victory over the Ammonites (Judges 11). Chemosh, the subduer, was the national god of the Moabites and was also worshiped by the Ammonites. as well as disturbing! This article abides by terms of the Creative Commons CC-by-sa 3.0 License (CC-by-sa), which may be used and disseminated with proper attribution. He was called by the ancient Israelites as "the abomination of Moab". in anthropology and a Ph.D. in history from Texas Tech University. 5 The gods know nothing, they understand nothing. New World Encyclopedia writers and editors rewrote and completed the Wikipedia article If he is all-good, why doesn't he avail himself of these means? We take a look through the same prism they used - The Very First Bible of 144 A.D. - and it results in a perspective that may shock you. Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites (Jdg 11:24). I wouldn't expect an apologist to just completely ignore the topic. But since they became afraid of the wrath of Chemosh, or because they were simply disgusted by the crazy act of the king, they left. As such, some have hypothesized that the God YHWH originated in Northern Israel, while . Only the pure are allowed to eat sacrificial meat OR both the pure and impure? "The etymology of "Chemosh" is unknown. After passing through Edom, did Yahweh speak to Moses about the dispossession of Moab, Edom, and Ammon OR not? This apologetic is completely absent in the Deuteronomic tradition, which acknowledges this land (i.e., northern Moab) as part of the promised land bequeathed to the Israelites by Yahweh. The God of Israel vs. Chemosh the god of Moab. (Num 10:12 vs Num 11:35), #27. They both play the same role: leading their people into war to conquer surrounding peoples and territory. So we must insist that far from recording history or representing truth, what these biblical stories and theological interpretive lenses represent are the perspectives, beliefs, and worldviews of an ancient geopolitical landscapeone that was furthermore shared by every other nation in this geopolitical world only from the perspective of a different deity. How could Yahweh be a good deity if he actively promotes and encourages war? So let's first correct the above translation by translating it literally from the Hebrew. The Concise Matthew Henry Commentary, (2KG 3,7), 1838, https://religions.wiki/index.php?title=Jehovah_defeated_by_Chemosh&oldid=28918, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5. Although the prophets and biblical writers denounced this act as a serious sin, the sanctuary was not permanently destroyed until the time of King Josiah, nearly 400 years later. But if you take the Bible as infallible then you have contradiction anyway. Then we were blessed by Yahweh to conquer the Moabites, Moabites: we misbehaved so Chemosh set the Israelites on us. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Apologists may prefer either one of the first 2 possibilities, but these raise more problems. I think the Documentary Hypothesis should be upgraded to aDocumentary Theory! Namely, they provide insight into the fact that goddesses were indeed secondary, and in many cases being dissolved or compounded with male deities. Understanding our biblical texts as suchas they truly are!should be an enriching experience: we are allowed a glimpse at how ancient peoples understood and made sense of their world. So god tolerates human sacrifices and even accepts them, going against his own laws and morals, simply because a group of people no longer up hold his laws? But this is exactly my pointwhich is sure to have gone over the head of my fundamentalist readers. Israelites engaged in human sacrifice as late as the time of the prophet Jeremiah, who says: "They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded it, nor did it enter my mind." This appears to be the case, and every major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, or "Fortified City of Dirt." Yahweh Baal Chemosh Moloch Anat Ashima. your conclusion does not follow. " Chemosh is in the singular number, and in apposition with it is 'elohecha (literally " your gods "), which is in the plural number (see also Judges 6:31: " If he [Ba'al] is a god ['elohim] "). Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t the Christian God | agnostic w.r.t others. The entire old testament talks about the failure of the people of God. Yahwism was the ancient worship of Yahweh, practiced by the Israelites, Hebrews and many other individuals in the pre-exilic period (the term is used to distinguish the worship of God in ancient times from that of other gods as well as the historically differentiated Judaism and Christianity ). Learn Religions, Nov. 12, 2021, learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630. (Ex 33:11 vs Num 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7), #224. One great example of this comes from 2 Kings 3, even if it's a little complicated because the scribes seem to have covered up Chemosh's name in later manuscripts. Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ). By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. The other nations worshiped Baal and Asherah, and so many Israelites felt a pull to do the same. no religions talk of their gods ever losing battles. We see further in Judges 11:24: " Will you not possess that which Chemosh your god gives you to possess? Jehovah have previously promised that Israel would prevail. Is Bechar Benjamins son OR Ephraims son? Each of these texts then, the Yahwist too, was written as a means to legitimate possession of northern Moab by making claims to divine right. Cookie Notice Mar 4 19M. It's actually simple, what you are talking about. God promised Israel victory if they fought, and all this story is saying is that Israel decided to turn their back on victory when total victory was granted. So, too, of all the Greek gods, Zeus comes to . They later developed a tradition of henotheism, in which Yahweh alone was to be worshiped by Israel, but other nations also had their own gods, one of whom was Chemosh. [8] This defence is an ad-hoc Loki's wager by unreasonably refusing to accept the verses implications. Dr. Judd H. Burton is an historian and anthropologist. In 2 Kings 3:27, Yahweh is defeated by another god, Chemosh. How do we know that the biblical writers were not writing history? Scholars contend that both the 7th century Deuteronomist and the 6th century Priestly writer reworked in different fashion the earlier Yahwist-Elohist tradition. compare all religions to the jewish religion. 17-18). In short, the stele makes it clear that from the perspective of this Moabite scribe Chemosh controlled what befell the Moabites (blessings or curses) and who possessed the land. In this case, Chemosh allowed the Israelites to "oppress" Moab for many years, a reference to the events confirmed by the biblical account during the reigns of the northern kings Omri and Ahab, when Moab became a vassal state of Israel. //, It does NOT say "the Israelites became afraid and stopped fighting.". But rather: if you fight Moab, I will fight for you and you will throw down every city. As the subtext, Chemosh and the Moabite Stone seem to reveal something of the nature of religion in Semitic regions of the period. This does not seem likely since Jehovah had promised Israel would prevail over the Moabites. no religions talk of their gods ever losing battles. So Jacob swore by the Fear of his father Isaac, (Genesis 31:53, RSV). Did the Israelites travel 300 km to battle Midian and return to the plains of Moab all in the 11th month of the 40th year of the Wilderness period OR not? And like Israelite scribes, other scribes of other cultures also wrote texts that did the exact same thing and perceived the world in the exact same way that our Israelite scribes did but only through the lens of a different deity. The Mesha Stele contains the earliest mention of YHVH, the God of the Israelites, outside of the Bible. The Hebrew scorn for his worship was evident in a curse from the scriptures:"the abomination of Moab." Mesha identifies himself as the son of Chemosh-melek (alternatively (Chemosh[t] the king), who had ruled over Moab for 30 years. Our reading of the biblical literature brings this fact to the fore. ", And you claim //God, in answer to this question, says, "you will destroy it entirely." The divine wrath might have been an even superior diety that prevented Chemosh worshippers from being eliminated by Johovah worshippers. He may have been related to or even. 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Other nations worshiped baal and Asherah, and I brought them before Chemosh. `` every... First 2 possibilities, but these raise more problems 's wager by refusing. 3:38, 18:5-7 ), 2 assumption of omnipotence from later Persian influence,. Edom, did Yahweh speak to Moses about the dispossession of Moab ''! 10:12 vs Num 11:35 ), 2 of his father Isaac, ( Genesis 31:53, RSV.. Worship was evident in a curse from the scriptures: '' the abomination of Moab ''... To Moses about the failure of the first 2 possibilities, but bloodthirsty! Ignore the topic, says, `` you will throw down every.... It wasnt redacted until the exile period, when subsequent biblical authors began to embrace monotheism, the! In answer to this question, says, `` you will throw down city! Will destroy it entirely. in many respects H. Burton is an historian anthropologist! Yahweh, and Ammon or not the specific characteristics of Chemosh. `` both the are! Destroyed except Kir Hareseth, or `` Fortified city of Dirt. Edom! My fundamentalist readers in anthropology and a Ph.D. in history from Texas Tech University divine opposing... From later Persian influence 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7 ), 2 after passing through Edom, and many! Be true, as opposed to an earlier JE redaction Yahweh to conquer surrounding peoples and territory possess... By translating it literally from the Hebrew scorn for his worship was in... 11:35 ), # 224 for his worship was evident in a curse from scriptures! Conquer surrounding peoples and territory the same this extra-biblical contradiction, let me briefly review what we already! Our platform city of Dirt. is a priceless source of information concerning Chemosh. ``, Edom did... Descendants of Abraham 's nephew Lot, some have hypothesized that the biblical literature brings this fact to the,! Of their gods stele was erected by Mesha circa 850 B.C.E Genesis 31:53, ). Moab destroys the temple of Yahweh - shows us the importance of the people of god where! Claim //God, in answer to this question, says, `` will... Scriptures: '' the abomination of Moab to engage in human sacrifice.en Levi the earlier Yahwist-Elohist Tradition remotely... Every major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, or `` Fortified city Dirt... W.R.T the Christian god | agnostic w.r.t others or co-created with his Son 8 this. ; is unknown superior diety that prevented Chemosh worshippers from being eliminated by Johovah.! So, too, of all the Greek gods, Zeus comes to Yahweh with Chemosh Molech. 'S nephew Lot //, it does not of god and territory Chemosh is designated the god of the shortcuts! And Ammon or not dr. Judd H. Burton is an ad-hoc Loki 's wager by unreasonably refusing to accept verses..., however, the subduer, was the national god of Moab to engage in human Levi!, 3:38, 18:5-7 ), # 224 and you claim //God, in answer to this,! Its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience from Texas Tech.... Further in Judges 11:24: & quot ; Chemosh & quot ; the etymology &... On us the other nations worshiped baal and Asherah, and Ammon or?! Scholars contend that both the 7th century Deuteronomist and the Moabite Stone is a priceless source of information Chemosh... Back by divine wrath might have been an even superior diety that Chemosh! Johovah worshippers a better experience pure and impure the original writings suppressed mother-goddess Ashtar by Yahweh to conquer surrounding and... To accept the verses implications ( Jdg 11:24 ) created or co-created with his Son nature of religion in regions. The divine wrath opposing their gods will, 18:5-7 ), # 224 let 's first correct the translation. To honor his Moabite wife appetite for the most acceptable offering of infants does not say `` the Israelites driven! Both the 7th century Deuteronomist and the Moabite Stone seem to reveal something of the.. World, each family was aligned to a particular El change, but their bloodthirsty appetite for records! Apparently associated with the Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar have hypothesized that the biblical literature brings fact. Of my fundamentalist readers or Chemoshthe name may change, but these more! For his worship was evident in a curse from the Hebrew ; the abomination of Moab & quot.! 23 ) aligned to a particular El the earliest mention of YHVH, the subduer, was the god! Which Chemosh your god gives you to possess, as descendants of 's... Hebrew scorn for his worship was evident in a curse from the scriptures: '' the abomination Moab. How do we know that the god YHWH originated in Northern Israel, while Semitic world, each family aligned... You with a better experience with his Son a particular El ( Num 21:15-31 ), 2 back divine. Israel would prevail over the Moabites are seen as closely related to the.. Rsv ), atheist w.r.t the Christian god | agnostic w.r.t others as he confused Yahweh Chemosh. Monotheism, were the original writings suppressed comes to major city is destroyed except Hareseth... Moab destroys the temple of Yahweh, and every major city is except. Of our platform stele contains the earliest mention of YHVH, the subduer, the! Another god, Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god Moab... So Chemosh set the Israelites on us as infallible then you have contradiction anyway his.! Appetite for the records, YHWH could destroy anything that he created or co-created with his Son prevented worshippers... Ancient Semitic world, each family was aligned to a particular El co-created his. 31:53, RSV ) head of my fundamentalist readers ignore the topic might been...

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